Hey guys, I am currently a music composition major but I am also interested in getting an online degree in programming/video game design.
http://www.gatlineducation.com/unbrande ... outln.html is only $8k total and it looks pretty rounded out but a few friends of mine say its a bad idea to get "video game design" degree as opposed to a more general one since it won't "make me think like a programmer/teach me all that I need to know about programming in general such as OSes".
What do you guys suggest I do? Thanks for your time.
What are your thoughts on programming college?
-
nG Inverse
- Posts: 115
- Joined: April 27th, 2012, 11:49 pm
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
I am still undecided on my chosen career path, but programming is defiantly an option. My plan if I were to choose that path is to go to community college for the first two years to get my firsthand classes out of the way (math, English, sciences, and a couple programming classes they offer). Afterwards, I plan on transferring to a college which has a specialty course for game programming/design (RIT is what I'm looking at as of now), however, still majoring in a more broad subject, Computer Science.
I have actually spoken to a few developers from my local area, along with some game developers from Telltale Games (the company that produced Walking Dead Video Game). They actually suggested me do this approach as apposed to a vocational or course-specific school. They stressed that employers want a much broader understanding then simply game development. Understanding basic computer concepts, which are caught through computer science classes, are key.
I also think there are a few things to point out about that link you posted. For one, those are very standard and general subjects. You could easily learn all those by reading 5 or 6 books (I can refer a few if you would like that I have personally read) and would save thousands of dollars! If your problem with that approach is reading, then you are not in the right place anyway. Taking online courses is MUCH different than the experience of actually sitting in the classroom. Secondly, I think the course is outdated. The current release of DirectX is 11; that course is following 9.
Regardless, I am interested in seeing others opinions on this. I am needing to pay for college myself within the next year or so, and am wondering if this would be a better approach. I still have a LOT of people to talk to, as I think I could learn the more general computer subjects elsewhere (like books!).
I have actually spoken to a few developers from my local area, along with some game developers from Telltale Games (the company that produced Walking Dead Video Game). They actually suggested me do this approach as apposed to a vocational or course-specific school. They stressed that employers want a much broader understanding then simply game development. Understanding basic computer concepts, which are caught through computer science classes, are key.
I also think there are a few things to point out about that link you posted. For one, those are very standard and general subjects. You could easily learn all those by reading 5 or 6 books (I can refer a few if you would like that I have personally read) and would save thousands of dollars! If your problem with that approach is reading, then you are not in the right place anyway. Taking online courses is MUCH different than the experience of actually sitting in the classroom. Secondly, I think the course is outdated. The current release of DirectX is 11; that course is following 9.
Regardless, I am interested in seeing others opinions on this. I am needing to pay for college myself within the next year or so, and am wondering if this would be a better approach. I still have a LOT of people to talk to, as I think I could learn the more general computer subjects elsewhere (like books!).
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
I'm kind of in the same boat, i'm looking into a career in computer programming and from what i've read, taking a game development specific course is a bad idea. Computer science is said to be a much more well rounded and respected qualification. I can see why it would be.
Musi
There are 10 types of people that understand binary.
Those that do, and those that don't.
There are 10 types of people that understand binary.
Those that do, and those that don't.
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
Me, I'm not interested in a career with a big programming company or gaming company. Honestly if you join a company and have a truly great idea, and you want to follow that and make it yours,
for one: if you make it inside the company, then they could take all the credit, and basically rape your baby...this has happened to a friend of mine (not a programmer, but same concept)
for two: you don't get the freedom you need to "think outside the box". they will always have you working on something for them, and more than likely...you're not going to enjoy it too much.
But these are just my thoughts on that subject.
On the subject of college, it all really depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for knowledge...you can find it there, but i wouldn't recommend it unless you have a good deal of money, and time. ALL of the knowledge you can learn in college can be found on the internet...most of which is free, and you don't have to sit through months (considering time spent in classes, not days spent) or years of general education that you'll probably never use, unless they are relevant to a specific program you want to create. You will however, have to weed through the bullsht of the internet and discern what is real and what isn't, but luckily, there isn't a great deal of people trying to make fake programming sites.
If you're looking for a reference, that is basically the only way to go. I hate to say it, but it's true unless you make something truly remarkable and put that on your resume. but...that's kind of the way our society works these days. you can be einstien, but if you don't have a piece of paper saying you can do something then in the eyes of employers....you can't. On the other hand, you can work for all that time and still never find a company that wants you.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from going to college...I'm just saying that there are easier (and MUCH cheaper) ways of doing things.
Me...I've decided I'm going to be an indie game producer.
This won't be the easiest task either though, because i have lots of learning to encompass that. By the time I'm done learning I would like to have a solid knowledge of C++, maybe some other programming languages, some art background and graphic design, music composition, and the use of tools like LMMS, and probably many more areas that haven't been brought to my attention yet. And all of this I will do online. Hell, maybe I'll even setup my own tut's like chili and give a more rounded approach to game design once I'm done but...that's for the future to tell.
wow...i surprise myself sometimes with the length of these things...I'm not a long-winded person...just someone that likes to keep people informed. So really in the end its up to you what you wanna do, just go into it with the knowledge of what will happen, and what can happen. And don't take that knowledge just from me, or just from this forum. Find all the knowledge you can on the subject, so you can make an educated decision.
for one: if you make it inside the company, then they could take all the credit, and basically rape your baby...this has happened to a friend of mine (not a programmer, but same concept)
for two: you don't get the freedom you need to "think outside the box". they will always have you working on something for them, and more than likely...you're not going to enjoy it too much.
But these are just my thoughts on that subject.
On the subject of college, it all really depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for knowledge...you can find it there, but i wouldn't recommend it unless you have a good deal of money, and time. ALL of the knowledge you can learn in college can be found on the internet...most of which is free, and you don't have to sit through months (considering time spent in classes, not days spent) or years of general education that you'll probably never use, unless they are relevant to a specific program you want to create. You will however, have to weed through the bullsht of the internet and discern what is real and what isn't, but luckily, there isn't a great deal of people trying to make fake programming sites.
If you're looking for a reference, that is basically the only way to go. I hate to say it, but it's true unless you make something truly remarkable and put that on your resume. but...that's kind of the way our society works these days. you can be einstien, but if you don't have a piece of paper saying you can do something then in the eyes of employers....you can't. On the other hand, you can work for all that time and still never find a company that wants you.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from going to college...I'm just saying that there are easier (and MUCH cheaper) ways of doing things.
Me...I've decided I'm going to be an indie game producer.
This won't be the easiest task either though, because i have lots of learning to encompass that. By the time I'm done learning I would like to have a solid knowledge of C++, maybe some other programming languages, some art background and graphic design, music composition, and the use of tools like LMMS, and probably many more areas that haven't been brought to my attention yet. And all of this I will do online. Hell, maybe I'll even setup my own tut's like chili and give a more rounded approach to game design once I'm done but...that's for the future to tell.
wow...i surprise myself sometimes with the length of these things...I'm not a long-winded person...just someone that likes to keep people informed. So really in the end its up to you what you wanna do, just go into it with the knowledge of what will happen, and what can happen. And don't take that knowledge just from me, or just from this forum. Find all the knowledge you can on the subject, so you can make an educated decision.
Consistency is the hobgoblin of the small mind ~Terrance McKenna~
-
nG Inverse
- Posts: 115
- Joined: April 27th, 2012, 11:49 pm
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
This is how it will always be, unless you find yourself in a VERY favorable situation. It's simple; they pay you, so you do as they ask. The only situation that you can honestly have the freedom that you are seeking is if you are in a very unique position or the absolute best of the best (which with the number of programmers out there and their experience level, good luck!).Cletus wrote:Me, I'm not interested in a career with a big programming company or gaming company. Honestly if you join a company and have a truly great idea, and you want to follow that and make it yours,
for one: if you make it inside the company, then they could take all the credit, and basically rape your baby...this has happened to a friend of mine (not a programmer, but same concept)
for two: you don't get the freedom you need to "think outside the box". they will always have you working on something for them, and more than likely...you're not going to enjoy it too much.
I agree, a lot of the information you learn in college is useless or repeated information. However, like you also pointed out, it's essential to have a college degree in this current world. Go ahead and look around all the companies hiring for programming positions (specifically gaming) and you'll see almost every single one requires a BS in Computer Science or equivalent education. Very few don't require this, just past experience and proof of that experience, but you'll also notice that lesser qualification with the satisfactions of the company and your pay check.Cletus wrote: On the subject of college, it all really depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for knowledge...you can find it there, but i wouldn't recommend it unless you have a good deal of money, and time. ALL of the knowledge you can learn in college can be found on the internet...most of which is free, and you don't have to sit through months (considering time spent in classes, not days spent) or years of general education that you'll probably never use, unless they are relevant to a specific program you want to create. You will however, have to weed through the bullsht of the internet and discern what is real and what isn't, but luckily, there isn't a great deal of people trying to make fake programming sites.
I'm not trying to discourage you from continuing on the path that you're going on, but there are much more full-proof ways. Without an education, there really is no assurance that you have the chance to get the job. If you and someone with the same level of experience as you are looked at for a position and they have a BS, they will most defiantly get the job. I still do encourage learning on your own to broaden your knowledge, or prepare for what you might learn later on.
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
Question:
It depends on what you want to do after and how strong your desire is to program and make video games as a job.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My personal opinion,
The main aim when you go to uni/college is to (1) learn and (2) show that you have learned.
If you learn everything by yourself then you will need a strong portfolio to be hired (like a very nice game entirely coded by you, or an app.)
In case you want to waste/invest some of your time in uni/college then it will be easier to show that you have learned, BUT the learning is something that you will achieve with or without uni/college ONLY if you are passionate, trust me.
So, to wrap it up in a few words, college/uni cost money but you will find a job more easily than without any certificate. Bare in mind: inside the company, having/not having a degree/ college certificate will NOT make any difference. If A knows more stuff than B than people will notice, don't worry
Answer:What are your thoughts on programming college?
It depends on what you want to do after and how strong your desire is to program and make video games as a job.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My personal opinion,
The main aim when you go to uni/college is to (1) learn and (2) show that you have learned.
If you learn everything by yourself then you will need a strong portfolio to be hired (like a very nice game entirely coded by you, or an app.)
In case you want to waste/invest some of your time in uni/college then it will be easier to show that you have learned, BUT the learning is something that you will achieve with or without uni/college ONLY if you are passionate, trust me.
So, to wrap it up in a few words, college/uni cost money but you will find a job more easily than without any certificate. Bare in mind: inside the company, having/not having a degree/ college certificate will NOT make any difference. If A knows more stuff than B than people will notice, don't worry
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
This is true, however...like i also pointed out, you can go through college and get a PHD, and still have nobody hire you. Granted the chances of this are relatively low, but it is a real possibility.I agree, a lot of the information you learn in college is useless or repeated information. However, like you also pointed out, it's essential to have a college degree in this current world. Go ahead and look around all the companies hiring for programming positions (specifically gaming) and you'll see almost every single one requires a BS in Computer Science or equivalent education. Very few don't require this, just past experience and proof of that experience, but you'll also notice that lesser qualification with the satisfactions of the company and your pay check.
One thing you should consider:
If you are proficient in a subject(such as C++, windows, networking, whatever) you can usually take a test and get certification for those areas. For example, if you are great at networking, and you know the use of the Cisco IOS, then you can take the CCNA exam and get those credentials, and that is worth even more than a BS in that subject, if you go even further and get a CCIE certificate...it wont matter if you failed the 3rd grade, employers will be falling over each other trying to recruit you.
Why am i saying all this? Well...lets just say im one of those who went through college...and didn't benefit from it. Granted...this is partially because of me, and partially because companys don't like to take chances. I got my AAS in Networking and never got a simple job because of that. Not for lack of trying, just an amalgamation of no prior experience in the field, broken promises, a bullsht college (except the teachers, they were all awesome) and no certification. Actually that is one field where certification is more important than education.
So now, i still have no job in my career field and im tired of looking, so i decided that i would create my own revenue stream, but i need alot more knowledge to do that, and here i am.
anyway, enough about me...My point is that you can have all the education in the world and it can amount to exactly shit(probably more of a golden turd for how much it costs).
And again...i am not trying to discourage anyone from going to college or anything. You can earn a great deal from college, and it will probably be a more robust and complete way of learning, you can even learn alot that isn't related to academia. Me...i learned how to think more critically, and it taught me that through sheer willpower i can do anything i please (granted...a rather expensive lesson, but one that is worth learning, and hard to learn through normal circumstances).
just....like i said....be aware of what you want from it, be aware of what can happen, and go into it with full knowledge.
Consistency is the hobgoblin of the small mind ~Terrance McKenna~
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
Sorry for not responding, for some reason I wasn't subbed. Thanks for all the replies guys.
To start, I agree that you can "technically" learn everything on the internet but practically it will take a lot more time and instead of having the correct material handed to you, you have to sift through a ton of information. I know from personal experience, there is so much misinformation on music...and I especially love the answers people give that are "do what you want man" or "it's all relative" whenever a musical concept is brought up. Going to college has reaffirmed to me that it is not all opinion, rather there is a lot of objectivity even to art.
But yeah, either way the problem I have isn't so much if I should get a degree but more so what degree is right for me. After looking up a lot about this I realized that rather than just programming I'd rather be doing design with an understanding of programming ie: Todd Howard, John Carmack, etc... Ofc I know there is no way in hell I would get a position like that at a big company I was thinking of trying to see if I can get some type of degree in that domain and then try to start up some type of indie stuff on the side (since after all my primary job will still be music, game design is something I want to do on the side regardless so I don't have time to be full time at some big company.)
Also from what I've read everybody recommends computer science over a "video game degree" but I don't see how computer science will help with the "design" and management aspect required of game designing. I've even read some people post that programming is a bad job because they're just "codemonkeys for the man" and get no actual input. I can see how this would really suck at a big company, especially for me since I like to lead and create ideas rather than just work. Don't get me wrong though, learning to programming for the past few has been really fun but do you guys think I should try for a video game design degree or a computer science degree (and wing the "design" parts) in my situation? Getting a computer science degree would cost me a lot more and I don't know if the degree matters as much for me since I'm planning on doing indie rather than getting hired. So if anything the only person I really have to prove anything to is any peers I'd like to work with (probably).
And sorry for not specifying more information about what I wanted. I've been confused about it for the past few days.
To start, I agree that you can "technically" learn everything on the internet but practically it will take a lot more time and instead of having the correct material handed to you, you have to sift through a ton of information. I know from personal experience, there is so much misinformation on music...and I especially love the answers people give that are "do what you want man" or "it's all relative" whenever a musical concept is brought up. Going to college has reaffirmed to me that it is not all opinion, rather there is a lot of objectivity even to art.
But yeah, either way the problem I have isn't so much if I should get a degree but more so what degree is right for me. After looking up a lot about this I realized that rather than just programming I'd rather be doing design with an understanding of programming ie: Todd Howard, John Carmack, etc... Ofc I know there is no way in hell I would get a position like that at a big company I was thinking of trying to see if I can get some type of degree in that domain and then try to start up some type of indie stuff on the side (since after all my primary job will still be music, game design is something I want to do on the side regardless so I don't have time to be full time at some big company.)
Also from what I've read everybody recommends computer science over a "video game degree" but I don't see how computer science will help with the "design" and management aspect required of game designing. I've even read some people post that programming is a bad job because they're just "codemonkeys for the man" and get no actual input. I can see how this would really suck at a big company, especially for me since I like to lead and create ideas rather than just work. Don't get me wrong though, learning to programming for the past few has been really fun but do you guys think I should try for a video game design degree or a computer science degree (and wing the "design" parts) in my situation? Getting a computer science degree would cost me a lot more and I don't know if the degree matters as much for me since I'm planning on doing indie rather than getting hired. So if anything the only person I really have to prove anything to is any peers I'd like to work with (probably).
And sorry for not specifying more information about what I wanted. I've been confused about it for the past few days.
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
While i agree that it is much better to learn from someone rather than look for it yourself and sift through bullshit(mainly because you can ask as many questions as you like and get a firm understanding of the subject), I don't agree that it would be faster. This is because, while you do have to sift through bullshit online, you still have to sit through basically worthless classes in a collegiate environment(like government, history, and art appreciation [GAG!]). These classes are worthless, unless you plan to use the knowledge learned in a game or program or whatever you wanna do. After you boil these 2 down, its really about the same depending on your luck online. So...while i know you don't wanna hear this, its really up to you and how you would rather do it.To start, I agree that you can "technically" learn everything on the internet but practically it will take a lot more time and instead of having the correct material handed to you, you have to sift through a ton of information.
As for the computer science/game design dilemma...I don't really know. It might be just me but you don't seem too clear on whether you want to program or you want to do video game design/programming. For programming i would say computer science all the way, but that's only if you're into that, because if you go deep into computer science then you will be bored to tears and probably give up on it unless you are truly interested in what you're learning, and i wouldn't recommend that. However...you seem like you want to make a career in video games, and i would say that video game design is the way you should go. Especially if you wanna just do it on the side and focus on your music, which you already have a certain degree of mastery with. I wouldn't go as far as to get a computer science degree unless it was going to be the primary focus of a good chunk of my life because that's too much time and money spent for something to do on the side.
Now...i've never been in the gaming industry so these are just my thoughts on the subject. Honestly im probably completely unqualified to give any advice on the subject, because i don't know how the industry runs,i just know how employers see people.
And in regards to the college/internet question...i would probably choose college if i had the money and time to do that again. I would go back this instant to do a game programming course, cuz its aggravating as hell sifting through online bullshit. I've scrapped 3 different engines for various reasons, some because i realized it wouldn't be able to do what i wanted, and some because i found out that if i wanted to do a commercial game, then i would have to pay through the nose, or give them part of my profit, which i won't do unless they're distributing my game for me(like XBLA or steam). so i finally came to the realization that the only way to do it was to go through programming. Not that i have to do everything in C++, but its the most solid footing i've found yet, and it's something to build on. I will be doing this for quite some time and i plan to learn many things along the way, and i don't plan on stopping any time soon. So...I'll sift through the internet and find what i need, and i'll probably waste a shitload of time, but i will make this my career, and i'll do it without some company getting rich off of my ideas (except maybe steam and XBLA and the like cuz...you gotta be able to distribute).
Sorry for the rant but...i guess what im trying to say is...get all the information you can, combine that information, and go into this informed, cuz knowledge is power! =D
Consistency is the hobgoblin of the small mind ~Terrance McKenna~
Re: What are your thoughts on programming college?
I'd disagree that they are bullshit, you still need to know things like history and english to function as a human being in any domain but either way the courses I'm looking at don't seem to ask that of me.
I agree with your second paragraph. I do want to program but from how I see it now, I think I'd rather make ideas and have programming knowledge to be able to bring them to fruition so I won't be a useless thinkbox but again also not be the other extreme where I can make anything but have no design knowledge.
And that sucks haha but at least you made it this far. My best suggestion for that is collaborate with others on ideas. Probably the best way to reaffirm what you know or are not sure you know/etc... Oh and I thought about why the course I posted offers directx9. It's because directx9 is still the most used of the directx and I imagine not knowing how to code it in but knowing dx10 won't be good because I have yet to see a fully dx10 game (despite dx12 coming out soon which is weird).
Thanks for the advice. Going to call up a bunch of schools in the morning to get some more information.
I agree with your second paragraph. I do want to program but from how I see it now, I think I'd rather make ideas and have programming knowledge to be able to bring them to fruition so I won't be a useless thinkbox but again also not be the other extreme where I can make anything but have no design knowledge.
And that sucks haha but at least you made it this far. My best suggestion for that is collaborate with others on ideas. Probably the best way to reaffirm what you know or are not sure you know/etc... Oh and I thought about why the course I posted offers directx9. It's because directx9 is still the most used of the directx and I imagine not knowing how to code it in but knowing dx10 won't be good because I have yet to see a fully dx10 game (despite dx12 coming out soon which is weird).
Thanks for the advice. Going to call up a bunch of schools in the morning to get some more information.